Hope that you’re right about the safety and efficacy aspects of this vaccine but I still prefer to wait until there’s more long term data before I get it myself.
Probably true but how is this really any different from influenza? We haven’t shut down the economy for that and yet people get infected and die from that in almost equal numbers. It’s a fools errand to try to eradicate it at the expense of all the other deaths caused by the powers that be’s heavy-handed approach to managing it.
Total MN deaths in 2020 are over 5000 deaths. And please don't try the argument that COVID-19 deaths are overstated. The same criteria on death certificates is applied to both influenza and COVID-19.
Of course, we have vaccine for influenza (of variable efficacy) as well as small molecule treatments like oseltamivir (also of various efficacy).
Our political leaders have to decide how much lives are worth to define an emergency worth shutting down parts of society. We hold them accountable through elections. No limits will lead to more deaths per capita.
But does the vaccine do those things? Does the data show that it reduces COVID-19 deaths or even duration of virus shedding? It’s only been tasked with reducing mild cases and that is what most people who catch it experience anyway. Moreover, can they guarantee that the mRNA coding for the spike protein won’t be incorporated into your native DNA via reverse transcriptase that has been shown to function that way with various retroviruses. Too soon to tell with a new technology for at least several years after countless millions receive this vaccine. Hopefully, we won’t see a big increase in autoimmune diseases down the road at which point it will be too late.
Viral shedding/transmissibility was not assessed, but severe disease (including some hospitalization) was assessed. Zero cases in the treatment arm, 30 cases in placebo arm, for a rate of 9.18/1000 person-years
"In the primary efficacy analysis, there were an additional 19 cases of severe COVID-19 (one of which resulted in death from COVID-19), for a total of 30 severe COVID-19 cases starting 14 days after dose 2, per adjudication committee assessment. All 30 cases were in the placebo group. Nine of the total 30 severe COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization. Of the 19 additional severe cases since the interim analysis, 12 cases met the severe case definition due to low oxygen saturation ≤93% with no other criteria met. The remaining participants met the definition based on the following reasons: death (1 participant), ARDS requiring ECMO (1participant), low oxygen saturation and renal and neurologic dysfunction (1 participant), low oxygen saturation and low blood pressure (2 participants), need for high flow oxygen (1participant), low blood pressure only (1 participants). The COVID-19 case which resulted in death was in a 54-year-old participant with diabetes."
With respect to the hazards of mRNA vaccines, this has been explained better elsewhere by others, and I would refer to this article.
Short response, from my perspective, unrestricted viral replication, including the production of mRNA for multiple viral antigens, not just the spike protein, seems way more dangerous, and likely to provoke an autoimmune response, than receiving mRNA from the vaccine, and generating just spike proteins. If insertion of viral genes into native DNA was an issue, we should have seen it by now from natural infections, which also generate mRNA.
By the way, I had the same reservations about receiving viral DNA 25 years ago with the Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine. As you may know, varicella, like other members of the herpesvirus family DOES insert into the nucleus, but not into the native DNA. On occasion, these herpesviruses (notably Epstein-Barr virus)are oncogenic (cancer causing). My concern then was the risk of inadvertently seeding cancer into the general population via the Oka strain of varicella in the live virus. Fortunately, this strain had already been used for 25 years in Japan before introduction as a vaccine in the US.
To my knowledge, none of the coronaviruses cause latent infections or integration into the nucleus.
Peter,
Hope that you’re right about the safety and efficacy aspects of this vaccine but I still prefer to wait until there’s more long term data before I get it myself.
Your choice, of course, Chris. But if a large number of people share your views, then this pandemic may keep rolling on.
Probably true but how is this really any different from influenza? We haven’t shut down the economy for that and yet people get infected and die from that in almost equal numbers. It’s a fools errand to try to eradicate it at the expense of all the other deaths caused by the powers that be’s heavy-handed approach to managing it.
Seriously? Check the stats. Influenza annual mortality in Minnesota ranged from 42 to 435 deaths per year between 2010 and 2018.
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/flu/stats/fludeaths.pdf
Total MN deaths in 2020 are over 5000 deaths. And please don't try the argument that COVID-19 deaths are overstated. The same criteria on death certificates is applied to both influenza and COVID-19.
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html#hospm1
Of course, we have vaccine for influenza (of variable efficacy) as well as small molecule treatments like oseltamivir (also of various efficacy).
Our political leaders have to decide how much lives are worth to define an emergency worth shutting down parts of society. We hold them accountable through elections. No limits will lead to more deaths per capita.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/22/sweden-coronavirus-covid-response/
But does the vaccine do those things? Does the data show that it reduces COVID-19 deaths or even duration of virus shedding? It’s only been tasked with reducing mild cases and that is what most people who catch it experience anyway. Moreover, can they guarantee that the mRNA coding for the spike protein won’t be incorporated into your native DNA via reverse transcriptase that has been shown to function that way with various retroviruses. Too soon to tell with a new technology for at least several years after countless millions receive this vaccine. Hopefully, we won’t see a big increase in autoimmune diseases down the road at which point it will be too late.
Good questions, Chris.
The Moderna study was better powered/constructed than the Pfizer study to answer some of these questions. FDA briefing packet is available here.
https://www.fda.gov/media/144434/download
Viral shedding/transmissibility was not assessed, but severe disease (including some hospitalization) was assessed. Zero cases in the treatment arm, 30 cases in placebo arm, for a rate of 9.18/1000 person-years
"In the primary efficacy analysis, there were an additional 19 cases of severe COVID-19 (one of which resulted in death from COVID-19), for a total of 30 severe COVID-19 cases starting 14 days after dose 2, per adjudication committee assessment. All 30 cases were in the placebo group. Nine of the total 30 severe COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization. Of the 19 additional severe cases since the interim analysis, 12 cases met the severe case definition due to low oxygen saturation ≤93% with no other criteria met. The remaining participants met the definition based on the following reasons: death (1 participant), ARDS requiring ECMO (1participant), low oxygen saturation and renal and neurologic dysfunction (1 participant), low oxygen saturation and low blood pressure (2 participants), need for high flow oxygen (1participant), low blood pressure only (1 participants). The COVID-19 case which resulted in death was in a 54-year-old participant with diabetes."
With respect to the hazards of mRNA vaccines, this has been explained better elsewhere by others, and I would refer to this article.
https://edwardnirenberg.medium.com/mrna-vaccines-and-covid-19-3ee8590617c5
Of course, viruses have a long history of provoking autoimmune diseases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6723519/
Short response, from my perspective, unrestricted viral replication, including the production of mRNA for multiple viral antigens, not just the spike protein, seems way more dangerous, and likely to provoke an autoimmune response, than receiving mRNA from the vaccine, and generating just spike proteins. If insertion of viral genes into native DNA was an issue, we should have seen it by now from natural infections, which also generate mRNA.
By the way, I had the same reservations about receiving viral DNA 25 years ago with the Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine. As you may know, varicella, like other members of the herpesvirus family DOES insert into the nucleus, but not into the native DNA. On occasion, these herpesviruses (notably Epstein-Barr virus)are oncogenic (cancer causing). My concern then was the risk of inadvertently seeding cancer into the general population via the Oka strain of varicella in the live virus. Fortunately, this strain had already been used for 25 years in Japan before introduction as a vaccine in the US.
To my knowledge, none of the coronaviruses cause latent infections or integration into the nucleus.